The Stranger, Seattle’s most avant-garde periodical, posted an article about Kyle Lake’s death on their blog. While it flirts with being inappropriate (to say the least), the post is also very telling about how many perceive Christianity.
Now if a man had been electrocuted during, say, a porn shoot or a lap dance or a confirmation hearing for a liberal nominated to the Supreme Court, the fundies would be screaming about how it was God’s Wrath, His Divine Judgment, the Lord Almighty Expressing His High Holy Displeasure (why can’t God, like any two year-old, use his words?).
So what exactly is God expressing when he electrocutes a fundamentalist preacher in the middle of performing a baptism?
…
Hm. Perhaps God was expressing that He is a Darwinist, and He doesn’t think anyone stupid enough to grab a mic while standing shoulder-deep in water should survive long enough to reproduce? Nope, can’t be that. The dead pastor already has three kids. While I would take this death as evidence that the universe is random and cruel, fundy Christians will attempt to tease out God’s message. I’ll save you the trouble of having to wait for their interp: As always, when something bad happens to them, it’s God’s testing their faith. When something bad happens to you, it’s God punishing your misdeeds.
Thoughts?
A. That’s crass, but it’s a good point. “God did it” reasoning always bites you in the bottom sooner or later.
B. I doubt it’s fair to characterize Kyle Lake and his church as “fundamentalist”.
C. Again, that’s really harsh. This guy was dearly loved, and even though Seattle is a long way from Waco, I don’t think his death deserves to be mocked, even by the Stranger.
I was thinking about this topic earlier today. This man’s death, tragic as it is, isn’t a theological problem for me, since I don’t believe god intervenes in physical events. Such an event is either a sad accident or a sad case of negligence on some other human’s part.
The Stranger is correct, however, in his/her interpretation of how many Christians will view this. It will be seen as a great test of their faith, a preparation for something marvelous and new that God hopes to bring about.
I think it’s just a tragedy that took a husband, father, and pastor for no good reason. You can make lemonade with it if you want, but if you deny that it is inherently sour and try to dress it up as God’s will, then I think you cheapen the very real loss this family has experienced.
I go back to the fact that God has a plan for every person on this world. While somewhat eerie, Kyle Lake’s passing may be part of the Lord’s purpose for him. Perhaps his passing will make news somewhere and even one person is saved. Is that not enough in the eyes of the Lord? We think too much on the impact a person could have if they had lived but the fact of the matter is that the Lord needed Kyle to come home to Him (or so I certainly hope) and his purpose here on earth was complete.
I am saddened by this news but rejoice for Kyle as he is hopefully home while we are not.
If you kill or allow the death of someone in order to achieve a goal, even one you see as noble, this makes you a criminally immoral at best, a terrorist at worst. It is a very dangerous line of reasoning to suggest that God did or even permitted this for a predicted greater purpose. Perhaps He can respond to such a tragedy by working in the hearts of those who survive Kyle to bring healing and even transformation. But I cannot picture God on the causal end of such an event, either actively or passively.
virusdoc,
I have a feeling the God has an entirely different view of death than you do (or I or anyone else for that matter). To try and constrain God’s will into human wisdom is itself a “dangerous line of reasoning”. So we comfort ourselves trusting in the goodness and wisdom of God. My impression from your writings in the past is that the veracity of God’s goodness and wisdom is a bit of a struggle for you, but it is a truth that we cannot always understand but learn to accept by faith.
I am sorry The Stranger has been hurt so bad by Christianity (although having lived in the Seattle area in the past, I came to realize that to many people “fundamentalist christian” equals “republican” and that is who they really despise). I hope we can do better in the future expressing the love of Christ instead of battering people with his holiness (although it is just as legitimate, important, and real).
wc
You know, your opinion isn’t that original. I’ve found that there are many who chuckle with arrogance at what happened.
What’s the difference between taking pride in entropic irony and searching for divine truth when digesting a story like this? You mock christians for seeking “good” answers, but the answers you’ve interpreted are (at least) equally arbitrary, if not pridefully arrogant and inherently flawed by the limitations of human perception.
In short, don’t mocj the deaths of others while you yourself are engaged in a social system of latent suicide.
If you died in a car accident tomorrow, would I have the right to find irony in the truth that you died because you didn’t have the forsight to know that America’s “civil” society is fraught with life-ending conduits?
You, and all the others who mock Kyle’s death, are just as guilty of human fallability, and the irony is that you mock death to enhance a psychological schema that is itself doomed to entropic failure.
yeah… that doesn’t so much flirt with being inappropriate as it does grab, it, push it down and have its way with with inappropriate. I can’t even respond to the substance because the content was so glibly superior… When even EmergentNO! comes off as more sensitive, you KNOW you must be an obnoxious ass…
argh. Need coffee now…
Will: thanks for the kind tone of your words. I agree that to try to constrain God to my own limits of understanding is futile and best and likely quite dangerous. But my perspective and intellect are really the only tools I have to work with as I try to understand Him, so I’ve done the honest best I can to make sense of events such as this one.
Over the past year, I actually have grown to have quite a bit of trust in the goodness and wisdom of God. But the only way I’ve been able to preserve that trust has been to come to the conclusion that he does not physically intervene in the affairs of man. This is in fact one of the things I find most good and most wise about Him, because once you start intervening everyone will want their own interests protected. In a world of limited resources, this would mean God would have to take sides, and I think that would be messy to put it lightly (see also: ancient Israel, radical Islam, the Crusades).
I am open to the possibility that Kyle’s unfortunate death was the exception and not the rule, but that is a difficult hypothesis to test and places God in all sorts of moral conundra in my mind.
While I am sickened by those who mock the tragic death of a father of three and devoted husband (regardless of religious views), this article is quite telling of how Christianity is percieved and what message we send to the world when we preach that events like Katrina were God’s wrath and judgment. It sounds just as inconsiderate and crass as mocking the death of a pastor.
That being said, I belive tragedy happens for two reasons whether you are a Christian or not…
1. Because of the fall of man, the earth has been cursed (Gen. 3), and so we live in a world that is not as it was intended by God.
2. Tragedy and difficulty in life is to bring us closer to God whether we know Him already or not. If we know Him, difficulties/tragedy in life teach us perseverance and faith. If we do not know God, difficulties/tragedy in life many times (not always) will bring us to a point of need and dependence on Him and many times salvation.
If men/women refuse to be brought closer to God through tragedy/difficulties, their hearts become hardened against God (not permanently, but each time they separate and move themselves further from Him). Note that I am not speaking of non-believers only here, this can happen to believers as well. (see Jonah)
Tragedy bringing believers closer to God: Book of Job, James 1, Noah (Gen. 6-9), Joeseph (Gen. 37-50), Paul (Rom. 5, Phil 4, 2 Cor. 12, 2 Tim 3,2 Thess 1) and many other Biblical examples along with people you probably know. Ask most Christians (not health/wealth/prosperity heretics) about their lives and you will get more examples.
Tragedy bringing non-believers to God: Paul (Acts 9), The children of the Israelites wandering in the desert (Book of Numbers), Numerous blind, leperous, lame, dead people that Jesus healed (Matthew, Mark, Luke John), and many other Biblical examples. Ask Christians you know about their testimony of how they came to know God and some sort of tragedy is many times (not always) involved.
Here is a eulogy from a blogger/church planter in Maryland who knew Kyle Lake and described him as an “emergent” leader - (typically) hardly fundamentalist.
Um . . . aren’t links cool?
[Answer from Justin: Only if you use valid HTML. Gotta close thatPosted by Jesse |
11
Wow. That’s pretty harsh, and arrogant, and ironic. Don’t they see in themselves the same self-serving ‘I-told-you-so’ attitude they are attempting to condemn? “See, Christianity isn’t all it’s cracked up to be and this proves it.” How’s that different from “See, God hates sin and punishes sinners and this proves it.”?
Still, I’m with virusdoc on this, they have a point. Too many Christians try to read God’s will into whatever happens. Why do folks do that? Do they think that God needs help in making his will known? Isn’t the Bible clear enough on what He wants for us? It is pretty arrogant of us to attempt to read a message from God into things, I think.
I’ll also agree with Will that God has a very different perspective on death. From His viewpoint with all of space and time laid before him whether we die a painful death from cancer at 33 or in our sleep at 103 matters little. What really matters is our relationship with Him, that’s what he cares about.
I see all of our world here, created for us by God, as designed to scream out how unqualified we are to lead our own lives & how much we need him. We prove it over and over again. Can we say where we come from? can we explain when we will die or why? Can we say why this ‘good’ man should die and another ‘bad’ man should not? Are we capable of stopping our own sin even when we know that it hurts us and those we love? I think over and over again these things and others point out our inadequacies. God hope we will look at this elephant in our own living rooms and turn to Him. Perhaps God does orchestrate individual events for specific reasons, who can say one way or another? But I don’t think He needs to because he’s created a world that’s designed to point us to Him every day, if we would only pay attention.
Sorry for the little rant, this is one of my pet peeves of Christianity, that we try to assign messages from God to every day events.
Justin - I got a bunch of gibberish errors when I posted my comment. The comment when through, though.
Sorry to interrupt. Carry on.
It would deepen this to hear of specific suffering readers have endured and moved through and carry …and how those specific times you have lost, been humiliated, been flattened and driven over by anyone ( especially significant others), fell prey to natural and contrived castastrophies/trajic circumstances…have affected your minds and hearts up to now. Hali,13, present victim of stage 4 brain cancer gave her reaction : God has reasons for what he does ( and does not do). His reasons are perfect, ours are not. He is incapable of contradicting Himself, has no part in evil , therefore look historically back to causes…passed along or clearly seen now. Answering a prayer for healing , miraculous interventions in rescuing us from ourselves…must be a constant pondering of His. When it is you or close to you that “gets it”…the suffering…it is hard to understand why He does not stop it when you or they are innocent of any part in it upon themselves. I only think in my miniscule human way…that He makes it all perfect someway someday…someday.That is a Promise I trust due to evidence.
just testing to see if all my comments will be moderated, or just the one above…
‘Doc, did you say something naughty? Tsk, tsk, tsk.
I must have, but I don’t know what! Aaron, can you tell me what flagged my comment from 7:15 this morning?
Maybe God didn’t like what you said and blocked it Himself. Or maybe He’s trying to teach you something.
“Don’t think I intervene in physical events, eh? Well, I’ll show you!”
Maybe we’re missing the point. I don’t take issue with trying to make sense of tragedy; it is a very natural human response to ask “Where was God when…”
What this post exposes (as only the Stranger could, in its harsh, offensive way) is the duplicity of many Christians in propagating an us vs. them mentality: when tragedy befalls “them,” it is God’s wrath, but for us, it’s “God works in mysterious ways.”
Jesus responded to such proclamations of wrath in tragedy in Luke 12:
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
It is just as immature of Christians to blame 9-11 or Hurricane Rita on God’s wrath as it is of the Stranger to print this diatribe.
Virusdoc, I fixed it. I’m not sure what the deal was. Maybe it’s because you used the word “conundra”. We don’t use such fancy talk in these parts.
Sourmonkey-
Note that this is a quote from probably the most secular/humanist newspaper on the face of the earth, not what Aaron and I are saying or thinking. Aaron posted it for the sake of discussion, since it makes a good point, albeit in a crude and disrespectful way.
Doc-
Make sure you’re logged in, and your comments won’t get moderated.
I tend to think that God does not cause tragedy, and that we should not blame God for things like hurricanes and freak accidents. I wouldn’t go so far as to say God doesn’t intervene in the physical world, but I would say building our theology on any one assumption about the specifics of how he intervenes is risky business.
Yet another instance of the author(s) of “The Stranger” being ignorant bastards. I wish it was possible for them to take their heads out of the sand, and at least realize that there’s a difference between a caring, humble, community-minded man, and some heathen getting a “lap dance” as they tried to compare this horrible tragedy to.
Another instance of their insistance on going on the attack of anything with the “Christian” label. Even at the further expense of Kyle Lake’s 5yr old daughter, twin 3yr old sons, and wife who had to witness their loving father/husband die such a gruesome death.
Folks at “The Stranger” would much rather endorse a Muslim Extremist who murders innocent people than any individual who is a Christian. Watching them as a neutral bystander has caused me to become increasingly sickened by who they are.
One thing is for sure - they will indeed one day learn the hard way. I fervantly wish that didn’t have to be so.
Why do bad things happen to people? The short answer is “I do not know.” Yes I know that we live in a fallen world but beyond that do I really know? I have my theory and it is complex. Maybe after being on the tail end of my seminary program my theory is too complex. Maybe.
One thing I do know: There are somethings too lofty for me to speak knowledgably on. The subject of God, providence and suffering comes very close, if not reaching, to being one of those subjects.
Does God allow suffering so that people will draw closer to him? Its possible? At least the story of Christianity is that God allowed Jesus to suffer for the sake of humanity. I became a Christian after grieving the death of my father (cancer in ‘97). But in 2002 my son, Kenny, died too. What was the purpose of Kenny’s death? Again I have some thoughts. But before I conclude that my son suffered death so that others my being drawn to God through this tragedy, I must ask myself one question — the question which will not allow me to draw a solid conclusion. If my son’s death was the means to bring others closer to God, was it fair to bring death on Kenny and not me?
The problem of human suffering is loaded with an almost endless amount of questions, some of which we can feel somewhat confident in answering but others we have no good answer too.
What the world needs is hope. And hope is the rest of the Christian story. Jurgen Moltmann reminds us that in the resurrection of Jesus we see the future, and in the resurrected Jesus we see our future. It is a living future and that is why Peter spoke of a living hope (1 Pet. 1.3).
Asking God “Why” always seemed to me to be a ridiculous proposition. If he wanted to tell you, he would tell you. If he doesn’t tell you, chances are you will never know. Being human, I am less than Him. My cleverness will never neatly prove his reasoning as valid, nor should it be required.
It may also be helpful to note that the author of this item was Dan Savage. There’s a good wikipedia entry on Dan here. Dan writes an extremely explicit love/sex advice column in the Stranger, and wrote what I’ve been told is a fascinating, entertaining and “Savage” book about the process of adoption that Dan and his partner went through.
I don’t think it’s exaggerating to say that of all the writers at the Stranger, Dan’s probably the one of the farthest left on the political spectrum. Seeing Dan’s potshot at Kyle’s tragic death wasn’t particularly out of character for some of his other writing, unfortunately.
I saw an interview with Billy Crystal the other day where he told the story about a Jewish, Black, Jazz musician who called him shortly after his father died. As a very young Billy struggled to understand the loss of his father, the man told him, “Billy, you probably won’t understand this until you’re older, but when you do, it will mean something to you, but I just want you to consider the rose. The rose is sweetest smelling flower of all flowers, but the rose has to be cut back and pruned.”
The reality is that bad things happen to all people. What effect and purpose that has on the living is and should be what’s relevant. When Horatio Spafford wrote, “It is Well With My Soul,” he was passing by the place where five of his children had died in a tragic boat sinking. Did he or his family deserve it? No, of course not, but faith must endure circumstances. He had every reason to turn to God and shake his fist (and maybe he did at some point). He responded, “When peace like a river attendeth my soul, when sorrow like sea billows roll. Whatever my lot, thou hast taught me to say, it is well, it is well with my soul.”
I pray that all of us can attain that kind of solid, beautiful faith, in spite of the circumstances that go beyond our understanding.
I stumbled across this blog while searching blogs left about Kyle. Kyle was a friend of mine and he would probably be laughing right now over all these posts and comments. It’s interesting to see what people outside the church or the situation think about Christians. I know Kyle would never have said that hurricanes and other catastrophes were God’s wrath.. Just nature, shit happens…
The cool thing about God is that He gives us free will to do whatever we want. Sometimes that means we do stupid things that hurt us or hurt others. While I’m upset at the loss of an old friend, I’m glad God didn’t step in and stop this. If God was like this then He’d control everything, and well I’d fear we’d all go straight to hell by the age of 7!!
Kyle was a young, hip, progressive pastor who was very forward thinking and not in any way fundamentalist. I think Kyle has won here in the fact that a website like yours is having a conversation about this. Go Kyle!! Once again you’re the man!!
This event has been hard, real hard for me. On one hand I understand where he’s gone and I know he has received he gift that we all long for. But, on the other hand I’m overwhelmed at time with grief and anger. I either want to laugh about the jokes and stories Kyle used to tell over a burger and shuffleboard at Crickets, or cry, no sob, over the loss of perhaps one of the most influential people in my past, or I get so pissed off I cuss at God and want to give up this whole damn thing we call religion. Why would our God allow something like this to happen to a man of God who is doing His work?? Just makes no sense to me…
I think what pains me most is that I never took the opportunity to tell Kyle how much he meant to me and how much he influenced me. It’s funny how we don’t realize those things until something tragic happens.. We get so wrapped up and caught up in ourselves, and our own pursuits that we forget to pause and thank the ones that got us here. So, I want to take a moment and publicly thank Kyle for what he was and is to me.
Thanks for being a free spirit.
Thanks for making me laugh and laugh alot.
Thanks for being the one back when we started the 2nd or 3rd married couples group at UBC to break the ackward silence when topics got tough (and by breaking the silence I mean breaking wind at times!)
Thanks for being there for Lisa and I after our first miscarriage, with a smile on your face and a casserole dish in hand!
Thanks for letting me yell at you and your God.
Thanks for letting me get angry and not telling me I was going to hell for telling God to fuck off.
Thanks for healing me and showing me how to trust in God again.
Thanks for being at the hospital at our 2nd miscarriage and making fun of Lisa’s socks as she went under anesthesia.
Thanks for your prayers.
Thanks for the lunches at Cricket’s and for letting me whip you at pool a few times, although I think you always won at shuffleboard, too much of a girlie sport like soccer for me!!
Thanks for letting me cry on your shoulder, snot and all.
Thanks for buying me breakfast at Barry’s Bagels one morning so we could discuss me getting into youth ministry.
Thanks for telling me it was ok to mess up and just be me, the kids will appreciate honesty instead of political correctness.
Thanks for being my reference as I applied at churches and putting your reputation on the line for me (although at the time your reputation wasn’t that good! It was 1999 afterall!).
Thanks for crying with us as we left UBC, our home, to pursue what God had in store for us.
Thanks for wearing those goofy zip up padded vests. I thought only my trucker dad wore those, somehow you made them look cool.
Thanks for being just a phone call or email away when I wanted to catch up every couple of months.
Thanks for preaching from your heart.
Thanks for not taking yourself seriously at all.
Thanks for showing all of us that pastors aren’t hypocrits.
Thanks for being honest.
Thanks for being an author.
Thanks for being a movie watcher.
Thanks for wiping a booger on me once during a prayer!
Thanks for being a husband and for showing young college students how to love your wife.
Thanks for being a dad, I wish I could have seen you with your kids, I know you were great…
Thanks for being my pastor.
Thanks for being my friend.
Thanks for being you…..
I’ll miss ya man, enjoy Heaven, and save a place for me at the pool table.. I get winner…
Grace and Peace,
Scott Ayres
Minister through Sports and Recreation
The PARC @ SLFUMC
http://www.theparc.org
[ Lisa and I started going to UBC, less than a year after it started, in early '96. The church grew so fast in that first year, that during the Baylor school year it had to meet at the Hippodrome (an old civic theatre seating close to 1000). Now when Baylor was out, we went back to reality and met at this tiny, old church house with maybe 25-40 of us there. Kyle came on staff shortly after this (maybe a year or so) and fit right in with us. It was an exciting time when we bought the building on Dutton and started renovating it and making it our own. Lisa and I went to church there for 4-5 years and left the church maybe 6 months after Kyle took over for Chris (Chris moved back to Houston to start Ecclesia). It was hard for us all, but Kyle filled his shoes well and didn't miss a beat in pastoring the community there. Lisa and I had a hard time leaving in late '99 as God called us into youth ministry at this small country church out in the sticks, but it was what God wanted for us. And I remember Kyle being so supportive of it and helping me through it. We got to know Kyle and Jenn well the previous year or so in our married bible study group. Kyle and Jenn were a part of our 3rd year of meeting and were freshly newlyweds, man they would make me sick!!! I can't think of any other couple besides Lisa and myself that were more in love..]